77 responses

  1. Ecodem
    September 4, 2012

    Hello, i have been doing some calculations and the total damage rupture does is just a bit higher than a non crit eviscerate. Eviscerates do crit for double damage. I havent done extensive testing, but it looks like ignoring rupture would be a dps gain and in the worst case a minimal loss with a great simplification on the rotation wich would in the end translate in a dps gain. Hell, if you look at that new spellbook section wich sumarizes the spec, subtley and assasination are told to use rupture while combat isnt. I dont think combat rogues are supposed to use rupture. Pre 5.0 combat without rupture was competitve according to elitist jerks, and combat doesnt have any rupture relatedntalents like assasination and subtley do. Check in the dummy the average damage of rupture and eviscerate.

    • Hugh Hancock
      September 4, 2012

      Interesting stuff – thanks for letting us know!

      I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that Combat gets minimal benefit from Rupture. As you mention, Rupture was a seriously minimal benefit before 5.0 for Combat – if Blizzard are pushing us away from Rupture, I can see the rotation rapidly evolving to work without it.

      I’m going to leave Rupture in there until I or someone else gets some time to do some rigorous testing, but in the meantime, I’d definitely recommend that anyone looking to simplify their Combat rotation check whether they see any significant DPS less from dropping Rupture.

      Thanks for this comment – it’s really interesting and much appreciated.

      • TheExile
        December 18, 2012

        I’ve been doing some pretty extensive testing on my rogue, trying to maximize my DPS. I’ve been toying with the Rupture Control vs Eviscerate Spam quite a bit, and on my iLvl 475 Rogue, these are my numbers:

        Rupture Control
        133k Burst
        87k Sustained

        Eviscerate Spamming
        142k Burst
        91k Sustained

        Now, overall, the numbers aren’t really game-changing. However, they are noticeable, and consistent for me. As stated above, Rupture only has a small damage increase over a non crit Eviscerate, whereas a critted Eviscerate can do well over double (even triple or higher) damage.

  2. Tr0ng0
    September 15, 2012


  3. Tr0ng0
    September 15, 2012

    Correct me if i’m wrong, but pre 5.0, rupture had always been a dps decrease over evisc, UNLESS a bleed debuff is applied to the current target. So if a feral Druid or arms warrior is present in the raid, then it was always a dps INCREASE to use rupture over evisc to benefit from the increased bleed effect. I am not sure post 5.0 if rupture is still considered a bleed effect or plain damage over time. If it remains a bleed effect, then the 30% increase bleed damage from mangle/ rend would surely justify the use of rupture over evisc?

  4. TheExile
    December 18, 2012

    I have a question on your talents/glyphs.

    1. First off, why use Subterfuge? I have found a massive increase in my DPS since switching from Subterfuge to Shadow Focus. The pause between Ambushes during Subt (almost 2 seconds) slaughters your burst, and overall lowers your DPS in general.
    2. I can’t really say I’m going to argue with you on Combat Readiness. I prefer Nerve Strike, but either way is good.
    3. Same as above. I prefer Leeching Poison, but to each his own.
    4. Dirty Tricks seems much more like a PvP Talent to me. Prey on the Weak is how I roll, since Kidney Shot is my top used Stun. Hence why Nerve Strike is also useful to me.
    5. I use both Anticipation and Shadowstep.

    1. Ad Rush is definitely a must, as you said. I think Expose Armor is also a must though. You should have 3 stacks of Expose Armor up at all times, and having to manually put those in goes at the cost of 2 Sinister Strikes. It’s not just once, either. Every 30s you’ll have to reapply Expose Armor, and if it’s not Glyphed, then you have to sacrifice more DPS. For the last one, as you said, it’s users choice. I prefer Deadly Momentum, because I’m lazy and don’t like reapplying SnD and Recup throughout the trash mobs.
    2. Personally, I believe there is an advantage to Glyph of Killing Spree, and that’s that you don’t have to waste any combo points switching targets if you land way away from your current target, or waste DPS by trying to run back to that target. The rest are cosmetic, but I like Blurred Speed and Safe Fall.

    Well, I disagree with you quite a bit here. Not even entirely sure why on some of it.

    Single Target
    I always open with Garrote (for some reason, it increases my DPS Burst and Sustained by about 2k). After Garrote, apply Revealing Strike and Expose Armor (only do EArmor once since it’s Glyphed). If I have Energy still, and 5 CP’s, then I’ll hit SnD. If I have Energy and less than 5 CP’s, I use Sin Strike until I’m out of Energy or have 5, and use SnD. Immediately use Killing Spree. As soon as Killing Spree is up, pop my Macro for Shadow Blades/Adrenaline Rush. Should always use those together. After that it’s an easy balance of keeping up Revealing Strike/Expose Armor, and SnD. Sin Strike to 5 CP’s and pop Eviscerate. Use Killing Spree and SB/AR as they come.

    Multiple Target (Less than 6)——
    1. Basically the same as above, but keep Blade Flurry up. Much more emphasis on Killing Spree now (amazing in crowds).

    Multiple Target (More than 5)——
    1. Turn Blade Flurry ON for just a second so you can use Killing Spree. As soon as that is finished, turn Blade Flurry OFF. Target one mob and spam Fan of Knives to 5 CP’s, then hit Crimson Tempest. Easy as that. If you want to, you can switch to the previous method once you get to 5 or less mobs, but it’s not recommended. You would probably waste a CD, since those mobs will be very close to dead regardless, and would die before it was up.

    If you have any opposition to any of these, or any tweaks/changes you want me to try out, let me know. I’ll even post screenshots of recount/combat log for those who want.

    iLvl 475 Rogue, TheExile, Alliance, Nordrassil.
    Avg. DPS: 92k.
    Avg. Burst: 142k.

  5. Defiantsoul
    December 25, 2012

    Just a small hint, rogues very rarely need to maintain the weakened armor debuff (unless this drastically changed in 5.1). Also, as far as I’m aware, other specs only use garrote for the additional benefitd such as energy regen or damage, not the damage of garrote itself however. Thus it is generally useless for a combat rogue.

  6. Kreepar
    January 15, 2013

    i would just like to add a comment on rotation,i take subterfuge in pvp becase i can shad step to my target then cheap shot then ambush i use a 4 point recupe then stealth breaks.revealing strike sinister strike kidney shot and finnally killspree.prey on the weak gives kill spree 10% extra damage. in bg i use vermines bite w/ killin spree.if they live thru that thay are badazz.and u take defensive munuvers if they get away from u.like faint combat readiness and cloak.i took shuriken toss cas its great for ppl who ar kiting u.wile they are kiting shurikin toss adds points to put up your slice and dice.if sum 1 is followin u use crimson temp and fan of knives .shurikin toss adds points to use crimsin temp and fan of knives add a point.the glyphs i use are claok of shad 40% reduction in damage an aditional 30% comes from elusiveness and as an added bonus combat readiness.i took the faint glyph so i wouldnt have to spam so much 2 secs is a long time in pvp.and as out of stealth shad step helps wen they get away from u and expose armor glyph .i macro’d shadstep and expose armor for out of stealth.macro combat readyness to cloak they both have same cd/,all my 3 min cd’s are macro’d together .shad blade adreniline rush evasion.and professions buff lifebloom.well thers more to tell but ill save for later . your helpful rogue kreepar.

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