The Dragon Soul nerf is a non-issue, right? I mean, if you don’t like it, you can just turn it off.
I’ve heard that argument a lot in the last two months – and, indeed, I’ve been on record as saying that it does mitigate the nerf. All the time, though, I’ve had this sneaking feeling at the back of my mind that, like Ben Goldacre says, “I think you’ll find it’s a bit more complicated than that”.
Well, Adam Holisky made that argument as the conclusion of an article about the Dragon Soul nerfs yesterday, and it has prompted two of the deep thinkers of the blogosphere to rise up and present some pretty solid arguments that, well…
You can’t just turn the nerf off.
First up, we have The Renaissance Man from Children of Wrath. He argues the point from several angles, but his key point is that turning the nerf off requires absolute consensus in a raid – and he’s quoting Ghostcrawler in support of his point, too! –
“One of the primary arguments that people make against these kind of nerfs is that they wanted to see what the content’s really like, not to be given their kill as charity by the developers who take pity on them. The dissenters claim that they can simply turn off the nerf, and everything will be the same as it was before. This is not true. Raiding is a team activity. You need nine or twenty-four other players to go along with you in order to raid with any serious degree of success. While you might get enough satisfaction to justify turning off the debuff, you need consensus within the group. The odds of everyone in the group agreeing with you is slim, and even one person in the group who would rather raid with the debuff will put the group in a very awkward position. You’re asking them to sacrifice their personal progression, not for an achievement, not for loot, not for a mount, but for something even more trivial, for your pride. If they give in, then they feel resentful at your imposition, and if you give in, then you feel disappointed with the instance. Ultimately, the very fact that a choice had to be made alters the dynamic of the raiding experience, even if you choose to turn off the buff.”
At the end of his post, TRM says that “If Blizzard had made it an actual choice, they would have given an incentive to raid without the Power of the Aspects.”. And that’s where the second of the learned essays on the subject today, from Anafielle at Sacred Duty, picks up.
Her essay is reasonably long and worth reading in full – it totally changed my mind on the subject – but the key point she makes is that without some reason or reward for turning the buff off, saying “Just turn the buff off” is no different to saying “just raid without food and flasks”, or “just use the wrong number of healers” –
“Achievement and meta drakes require very weird strats. No one would do those fights in those ways without the achievement there, but it’s there, so we do. There’s an achievement in Ulduar and in TOGC for completing tasks in specific ilvls of gear. There were 22-man achievements in Naxx– same deal. There are even achievements for things like dealing with X number of pugs. And you know what? Some people really do farm trash for gear. So sometimes we do jump through those silly hoops– when we get a reward in return! (One day there will be an achievement for that, Esoth. One day.)
Farming is another example. Say I went and killed 1000 of a certain mob. I would be willing to bet no one sits around killing mobs because they want to kill 1000 mobs. But if they get reputation, or achievements, or a non combat pet, or just gold or a drop they want– then believe me, there will be people farming!
Rewards. A task with a reward is meaningful. A task without a reward is meaningless.”
Once again, today’s posts are on my “I hope Blizzard are reading this” list. I’d love a reward for completing DS without the Aspect buff – and it would indeed make the choice feel a lot more meaningful.
Do you think that people complaining about the DS nerf should just turn it off?
{ 11 comments… read them below or add one }
The other point about “just turning off the nerf” is that since most people ARE NOT doing so and, because there’s no extra, tangible reward for turning off the nerf (ie: achievement for having done a particular hard mode without the nerf), if a raid group turns off the buff, they are dooming themselves to slower progression than the people with whom they’re competing for recruits.
Recruitment has been godawful this entire expansion. It’s been terrible, particularly for 25-man guilds, so the difference between 4/8 and 3/8 HM is huge. As a potential applicant, what would you prefer? A guild that is halfway through heroic Dragon Soul or “just” 3/8? What about the more experienced applicants? What if they’ve already done 4/8 and don’t want to have to relearn/re-wipe on fights they’ve already put substantial time into?
Turning off the nerf with no extra visible reward is suicide for heroic raiding guilds who are NOT top-tier (ie: Paragon, vodka, etc) who are recruiting. Plain and simple.
I agree completely with you Kurn.
Recruitment is very, very important and it certainly has been a mess this expansion. If I might generalize for a second, you might say that recruitment has been at the core of several arguments. The “H AA & H AC 10 vs 25″ debacle comes to mind, another example of different tasks being equally rewarded in-game. But the problem wasn’t the reward, at all– the problem was its impact on recruitment.
Anyways. I touched on recruitment & progression in the second part of my post — but frankly that entire section was entirely Mel and Theck’s additions, who have both spent time as GMs and thus feel management issues much more keenly than I. You as well are another example of a GM who goes straight to the question of recruitment, whereas that was something I kinda forgot about until Mel & Theck both mentioned it to me. Different people have different views on the game.
We are all competing for recruits, we all want a nice stable roster of raiders to hold onto into MOP. I’ll be highly surprised to see anyone not 8/8 HM touching that switch. I guess it’s a neat gimmick for done guilds to do, but it is nowhere near a feasible option for those still progressing.
I also wish they would add in a achievment for doing it wihtout the buff, These people who complaing about not wanting to turn the buff off come up with pretty much every excuse you can think of. We wont be able to recruit, all our hard work was for nothing, someone only passed our guild progress because of the buff.
Lets be honest the race for progression is over at this point in time. You might have people still working on HDS but at this point most people do not care what your progress is. I wish Blizard would add in a achievment then we can move on to the next excuse from people who dont want the buff. Let be very honest right not the buff does not hinder your guild ranking whats so ever.
Example the highway. Every 50 miles you have a speed limit increase. You have 100 drivers all driving the same speed limit. Driver #1 hits the speed increase along with everyone else. Driver #1 is not going to start getting passed by people who were 50 cars behind all of a sudden it’s just not going to happen.
“Do you think that people complaining about the DS nerf should just turn it off?”
No, I thinks what they should stop complaining and accepts that they lost the race against the clock. If there were any real desire fer keep doin’ DS at the original setting, we’d see guilds springing up all over advertisin’ what they does it that way. Since there ain’t, I sez all the “I’d do it, if only…” complaining is a mix of self-delusion and chest thumpin’.
Well, congratulations on either not reading the articles linked, or just completely missing the point.
From Ana’s article:
“Conclusion: Quit saying “Just turn off the buff”, because you just look dumb.
There are so very many excellent reasons why the buff is a good idea. I could write a whole follow up boring essay about what a good thing the buff will be for the entire game.
But “LOL You can just turn it off!” is just about the worst reason you can come up with. The switch isn’t there for any serious reason since the game doesn’t pay it any attention at all. It’s a psychological crutch. There is absolutely no reason to use it, and trying to do so would just be counter productive to your raiding environments. It’s pointless. Calling it an argument gives it more credence than it deserves- it’s more of a troll. And oh man, it hurts when the blues troll me, it really does.”
While there are legitimate arguments for and against the buff, “You can turn it off!” Is not one of them.
Is DS a properly tuned instance? Is the blanket nerf model harmful or beneficial in the short term? In the long term? Is the debuff a tuning move, an accessibility move, or a longevity move?
These are all legitimate arguments that have valid points on both sides. “You have a choice.” Is not, when, by Blizzard’s own admission, it is not a choice that they consider interesting or compelling.
@Kurn
Then leave the buff on clear the content and then go back to doing it with out the buff. Gear does not fix stupid lets be honest. People still can not clear Heroic LK 25 with a full group of geared 85′s. The same old recruiting excuse we hear over and over. Anyone joining a guild stictly based off 1 tier of conent is not a real raider or is a idiot. I could care less if a group is 5/8 and another group is 3/8. I look at the guild itself, how long have they been together how much content have they cleared over the years and in what time span. I can put a 25 guild together in 1 weekend and do 5/8 and then spam trade chat that _______ guild recruiting 5/8 LFM. As someone who is looking for a new guild i would not even consider them i would rather go with the 3/8 guild who is established and been raiding for a while.
All things being equal: Same raid times, same past progression, both guilds have been around since the closed Alpha, you like both groups personality wise the same, same faction, same cost of transfer. Which would you rather go to? A 3/8 guild? Or a 4/8 guild?
If you think that progression doesn’t play a serious role in recruiting, then you’re never actually been in a leadership position where you had to deal with recruiting.
Really we resorted to all things being equal argument. What planet do you live on? Maybe it’s because I live in the real word and understand clones do not exist, one always outweighs the other. I know what a pain in the ass it is to lead a raid and recruit; I am not looking for someone who only joins my Guild/Raid because of a number of cleared content they see on our guild progress. I don’t recruit in forums and I don’t recruit in trade chat. Those people who are looking in trade chat for a guild are not the people I want in my Raid, plain and simple they do not have what it takes 90% of the time.
The decision we make to keep or turn off the buff is made as a whole. We are established as a guild to where we do not need to worry about other guilds progression. Those guilds come and go and are a dime a dozen. When I look in the guild Roster and see people I have known for years and can depend on them when the time comes to progress that is what turns a smile onto my face. I have been in mumble many a times and hear so and so guild just down ____ boss. It’s like a little blip in the night we hear it and move on, their progression does not make us the guild we are today.
All I was doing was highlighting the fact the a guild’s progress has an impact on recruiting, and as such recruiting will be affected adversely by the decision to hamstring yourself in a venture that you can’t even prove you’re doing, or disprove anyone else is. Between the SD article, my article, and Kurn’s previous articles and comments, there are four GMs of raiding guilds pointing out the harmful affects of the lack of choice with regards to decision that Blizzard has made.
You can’t say that simply because there are other variables in the recruiting equation that progression doesn’t matter, and that it’s not a major decision on the part of a raid team to willingly take steps that would hamstring your progression. If you honestly believe that, then you’re not even in a hypothetical world, you’re floating out in the ether.
I totally agree with every point Seen there. Especially when I consider realms which are very behind in raiding (EU azuremyst on horde side is an example). I have observed one guild there has wanted to start raiding, but naturally started PvP before the raiding. Without progression they could not easily get any people into their guild (only killed 3 tier 11 bosses between them, and not even as a whole guild group). Advertising “progression 3/12 tier 11 normal” is nothing to boast about so naturally no one ever joins.
So don’t say progression does not matter for recruitment: its a race to be the best first, and those who start late, stay late and never catch up. And for those people who are stuck in behind guilds, unable to get into the “hardcore uber guilds”, I am so sorry for, as many of them have what it takes, but never an opportunity as a result of a late start. It is a vicious circle that never ends. The guild level only makes it worse too.
ALso forgot the on-topic bit, sorry for double posting. This applies to DS very much because people who did get the opportunity to try DS but get left behind, get to a grinding halt with no proression. AT such a point noting whether you use the nerf or not does not matter: in fact using hte nerf deters many more raiders, as people try to find the easy way to do things while also doing it ASAP.