Falling Leaves And Wings: Are 25 Mans Going To Be Worth The Effort In Cata?

by on November 12, 2010

So Cataclysm is about to drop big changes on raiding mechanics. 10 and 25 man raids will drop the same loot. A lot of us are biting our nails to see what this does to our favourite raid size and our guild, and Beru over at Falling Leaves and Wings has joined that group with her latest post.

Beru is worried that 25 mans are going to suffer, but she’s not being unfair to 10 mans. Y’know, she’s not saying they should die in the hurty stuff on the floor. She’s simply looking at what we know of Cataclysm and speculating that 25 mans might not continue to be worth the effort compared to running a smaller 10 man group for essentially the same carrots rewards.

We are going into the expansion full steam as a 25 man raiding guild. We’ve been a 40s/25s guild since Vanilla – and we don’t want to change that. But I’m going to be honest here, I’m really struggling to find the silver lining in this cloud. It is a lot  of work to organize a 25 man raid, and even more work to do it with any modicum of success. But to date – it’s continued to be worth the effort put into it because the reward has been there to justify it.

But moving forward?

I have to tell you, I just don’t know where the effort vs reward factor is going to fall. I want to continue raiding 25s – we’ve built a strong guild full of people that I enjoy playing with, and I don’t want that to change.

I’m a 10 man advocate (put those sticks away!) and have my own wibbles. But Beru’s post is very well written: I can really empathise with where she’s coming from. Her guild is based on running 25 mans, it’s what they do. But, she asks, what will the real point be – are 25 mans really going to get more quantity of loot to gear the group up quicker than a 10 man? And what if the raids aren’t balanced well enough and either 10 or 25 man turns out to be easier?

Beru’s post alraedy has a lively discussion going but she’d like to hear your thoughts too – as would we! What do you think – are you really worried about your favourite raid size? If so, why?

Quote taken directly from Beru’s post
You can find Falling Leaves and Wings’ homepage here.

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{ 6 comments… read them below or add one }

Adanos November 12, 2010 at 7:06 pm

The real question is…. if the only thing making people running 25 man is the loot and not the fun of it, then why do it?
Im a firm believer that no matter how or what you raid, you should always do it for the fun (thats why I’ve been hating Wotlk, cause NOONE raids Naxx anymore…. while in TBC people still raidead Gruul’s just for fun) so, if people stop doing 25s cause 10 is more fun, or better or whatever….. then why there should be any incentive to raiding 25s?
The upside to 10s is that there’s way easier to find 9 good players rather than 24…. and the downside is that any death in the group is has a greater impact on the fight. My point is, if people only run 25s cause “the loot is better” then thats a indication that 25s are not a good format for raiding. If you dont like 25s just because it feels more epic, or because its more flexible, or whatever… then why should there be a mechanism to “encourage” you to roll 25s??? isnt the goal of playing wow having fun?


Beruthiel November 13, 2010 at 2:35 am

@Adanos I think you probably ought to read the entire post ;)
A big part of my concern is that while I enjoy raiding 25s –  if 25s don’t offer incentives, it’s going to be increasingly more difficult to field a 25 man raid  when 10 mans offer the same things with far less hassle…but also less epic-ness (in my opinion).  And that largely has nothing to do with me and my preferences, if you can’t recruit to cover your attrition, your raid is going to die.  Additionally, if 10s are Blizzard’s desired raid size now, why even continue to offer the 25 man format?
It is far more complex and trickier than trying to boil it down to “if you are only doing it for loot…”.  The reason that I mentioned the loot drop increase at all is because Blizzard told 25 man raiders that increased drops would be the incentive that distinguishes the 10s from the 25s.


Beruthiel November 13, 2010 at 2:36 am

Thanks for the link, Rebecca! :)


Adanos November 14, 2010 at 7:25 am

(Disclaimer: sorry btw, my first language isnt english so, trying to convey my thoughts is not as straight foward as I’d like)
The problem Beruthiel is two fold, while its true that if you dont have some incentive to 25s, people will go to 10s, it doesnt feel right if 25s yield better loot, cause truth be told 25s arent more difficult than 10s, if you have a good 25 group and a good 10 group, the difficulty of the raid is more or less the same, the difficulty in 25s is getting the group rather than running the raid per se…. so, giving better loot on 25s doesnt make any sense at all, but on the other hand (as you said) if there isnt some incentive, people will turn on 10 man raids. I think the only viable choice for encouraging 25s without giving them better loot, is to simply give more loot. For example, if a 10 man boss gives 50 JP and 1 item, then the same 25 boss could give 75 JP and 3 items (of the same loot table, ofc) in that case, you have 3 times the chance of getting your item to drop, and a slight gain on quantity of loot, plus a bit more JP for the troubles, which is I think the way blizzard is going to do it (at least from what I’ve heard).
Anyways, its a complicated matter… true,  and I personally love doing both types of raids, but I wouldnt like being forced to do any of the 2 cause “noone raids 25s anymore” or “25s have better loot”, another way to fix it would be to lock some raids in 25 and 10 modes, and having 2 of each on every step of the progression with different (but equal in level) tables, think of it of having Zul Aman & The Eye, or Karazhan & Gruul’s.
(I think TotalBisquit touched this subject a few weeks back in the “blue plz” podcast, so.. you might want to find it, its really interesting)


Roxton November 14, 2010 at 12:35 pm

25 mans are still going to be the best option for any serious guild. The reason why? The Flexible Raid Lockout system. In its current implementation, you can switch between 25 and 10-man difficulties on a boss by boss basis throughout an instance – e.g. we could start boss 1 on 25man, split into two 10 mans for boss 2, then rejoin for boss 3. The problem with this is that no matter how hard Blizzard try to balance this, they’re not going to be able to make 25 and 10 mans exactly as hard as each other – not on a fight by fight basis. They may be able to balance it over a whole instance, but not for a single encounter. There are simply some mechanics that favour a particular raid size; e.g. an ability that arbitrarily one-shots a raid member will have a much greater impact on a 10man raid than a 25man raid.
As a result of this, we’re going to see 25man raiding having a significant advantage here, as they can simply hop between fights to take the easier option each time, thus screwing over 10-man progression, at least in normal raids (in heroics you’re locked into a size for the whole raid). 25mans still have a significant advantage.


Rebecca November 15, 2010 at 1:59 pm

@Beru and Adanos – If Blizzard are going to increase the quantity of loot that drops in 25 mans, I hope they do it right so that there’s enough of an increase to make individuals want to persue 25 man goals in a team oriented towards 25 mans. If the quantity of loot that drops in 25 mans still, percentage wise, gives less players upgrades in 25 mans than in 10 mans, that might not provide enough incentive to go 25 man for an individual who works first on rewards rather than group identity or loyalty. Which is a type of player, frankly and possibly pessimistically, I think there will be a lot of as we come out of Wrath, and with guild perks in play they’re going to be looking to join a guild sharpish. If that 10 man gives them more purple pixels than that dedicated 25 man…
Though the idea of different raids for different sizes is interesting, so long as it allowed each size to progress up the ladder at the same speed. The only downside I can see is not being able to see the other group size’s raiding content; for example if you’re a 10 man raider, not being able to see the equivalent but different raid for 25 mans. I think Blizzard are trying to move away from locking people out of content/making content only some of the playerbase will see.
@Roxton – that’s really interesting, I didn’t know that you could change raid size per boss in normals. In that case you may be right in saying that 25 mans are going to have the edge. Certainly they’ll have speed and options on their side. Not only will they be able to split into two groups for a boss but they’ll have five ‘spare’ players they can swap in and out of those two groups to tailor their class setup and needs to the encounter. Anyhow, I’m doing the blogroll rounds in a short while and see you’ve written on this topic, so I’ll have a gander in a sec.


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